Guiding Others and Finding Direction, with Caroline Gaynor

Cammie Doder (00:05):
Welcome to Money Tales, where Money gets personal. I’m Kamie Doer

Sandi Bragar (00:09):
And I’m Sandi Bragar.

Cammie Doder (00:10):
What happens when you realize the moment you feel most lost are the ones that end up giving you direction? In this episode, Caroline Gaynor, vice President at Advantis Investors and an endurance athlete who guides blind and visually impaired competitors through marathons and Ironmans shares how helping others quite literally shaped her own path from feeling unprepared for adulthood and money in her twenties to becoming a passionate advocate for financial education. Caroline’s story is honest and energizing.

Sandi Bragar (00:46):
Here are three money conversations. This episode will help you navigate first, the gap between confidence and financial reality. In your early career, Caroline reflects on her own early missteps from feeling overconfident to not fully understanding how work and money function and what she wishes she could tell her younger self. Second, how to think about investing before it feels urgent. Reframing, saving as creating flexibility, not just preparing for retirement can change how and when you start building wealth. And third, navigating money dynamics in modern relationships. As a primary earner in her household, Caroline shares the evolution of how she and her husband make decisions around careers, childcare, and what to outsource. Now it’s our pleasure to bring you Caroline Gainor Money Tales. Caroline Gainor, welcome to the Money Tales podcast.

Caroline Gaynor (01:44):
Thank you so much for having me.

Sandi Bragar (01:46):
We are delighted that you’re here. And before we get started with your money tales, I want to share that I’ve been involved in some tax planning with a client that we work with. I bring this up because when I say taxes, most people start to yawn and go to sleep, but I think tax planning is one of the most fun things that we do as wealth managers. The tax code is very complex. There’s a lot to it, but there are rules and it’s really fun to be able to apply those rules to different people’s situations. In the most recent one that I was involved with, we were helping a couple who have been retired for some time and have gotten to the point where they’re starting to take required distributions from their IRAs. So once you reach to certain age, the government makes you start taking money out, and that has increased their taxable income quite a bit to the point where if left unmanaged, it would also drive up the cost of their Medicare premiums for Part B.

Cammie Doder (02:46):
Oh, wow. And

Sandi Bragar (02:47):
The increases, they’re not life changing type increases, but if you get creative, sometimes you can do things to reduce your income in order to manage below the next tier of cutoff that would cause those rates to go up higher.

Cammie Doder (03:03):
How do you get creative?

Sandi Bragar (03:04):
Well, there is something that people who are 70 and a half and older can do called a qualified charitable distribution. And that means you can take money out of your IR, give it directly to a charity and not have to recognize the distribution is taxable income. And you also do not get a charitable gift deduction. But the QCD for short can be considered as part of those required IRA distributions that I was mentioning. This client couple happens to be very philanthropic, so we were helping them figure out what’s the right level of QCD to make given all of their philanthropic plans in a way that can help them reduce their overall taxable income and manage things like Medicare

Cammie Doder (03:48):
Win-win. Sandi,

Sandi Bragar (03:50):
This is one example. Tax planning is not just for retired people. Up and down the income scale things can be planned, and I think with the OBA tax law that was passed last year, that creates new planning opportunities, especially around philanthropy. So don’t let the word tax make you yawn. If you’re not really familiar with your tax situation, highly recommend talking to a financial advisor or a tax advisor to help you get up to speed on what your tax picture really looks like. Again, if you’re not familiar with it already and how you might be able to plan to help reduce your taxes overall and redirect them to places that you might prefer to be giving money to, including yourself and your family as you save money over time

Cammie Doder (04:37):
When you talk taxes. I have to say, it doesn’t give me the warm and fuzzies that philanthropy

Sandi Bragar (04:44):
Does. No, no, no.

Cammie Doder (04:46):
I’m one of those people, I’m like, my eyes cross, I think, oh God. But I love that you’re painting this picture that it doesn’t have to be so

Sandi Bragar (04:54):
It doesn’t have to be that way. You can make it fine and exciting. I’m inspired, and like I said, there’s opportunities to save money, whether it’s by paying less taxes or deferring taxes and letting your money grow someplace else.

Cammie Doder (05:09):
I love it. I love it. Let’s turn to you, Caroline. Could you tell us a little bit about yourself and share a couple pivotal moments that it really shaped your path?

Caroline Gaynor (05:17):
My name’s Caroline and I am a vice president at Avantis Investors. So I work for a low cost systematic ETF manager. And in my free time, I’m a guide for blind and visually impaired athletes. I’ve done 10 Ironmans as a guide and I’ve recently sort of switched more to marathon running just because I have two young kids and you’re

Cammie Doder (05:41):
Chasing them around. It’s

Caroline Gaynor (05:42):
Just less

Cammie Doder (05:42):
Time

Caroline Gaynor (05:42):
Consuming when you have to do an Ironman, the biking takes so many hours. So it sounds really silly to say that marathons are less time consuming, but they are, let’s see, pivotal moments. There’ve been so many pivotal moments. I will say those, the first time I ever guided in a race was 1000% a turning point for me.

Cammie Doder (06:01):
When was that?

Caroline Gaynor (06:02):
That was 2008. It was the first triathlon I ever guided, and I just will never forget crossing the finish line of that race. And what’s funny is it happened to be at a point where I was unsure of my career path. I was a young adult, so I was 24 at the time, really didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life, but guiding just made so much sense. So it came at the perfect time because personally and professionally I was struggling, but that clicked for me. And so I’ve been guiding ever since.

Cammie Doder (06:39):
You were having trouble in your own life, but this gift of being a guide, you were looking for guides, it sounds like, and mentors, and then I’m sure through that experience you got your own direction and vision, but we’ll go there before we do. We love hearing someone’s backstory around money. So when you were growing up, first of all, where did you grow up or region? And tell us a little bit about learning about money.

Caroline Gaynor (07:06):
This is so topical for me right now because my seven-year-old daughter is asking all the questions about how much people make, what things cost, how can she afford things, but I don’t feel like I got that same level of education that I’m hoping to provide her. So I grew up mostly right outside of Chicago, but I was in Philadelphia till I was seven, and then my dad got a job in Chicago and we moved, and then shortly after that, my dad left and he was still around, but my parents were no longer living together, so it was really my mom and then my sister and brother and me. It was really interesting. My dad had a good job, but there was always, I felt like insecurity around money. We were making sure that my mom got the check so she could pay the credit card bills, and so we lived in a nice house, but it didn’t feel like there was an abundance. So I think my siblings and I definitely had some anxiety around money. That being said, we wanted for nothing. So in no way am I suggesting that we didn’t have what we needed, but I didn’t really understand what does it take to run a household? What does my mom have? What does my dad have? What do we have? I just had this idea that when you go to college, you get a good job and you make money, and then you make more money and then you’re fine

Cammie Doder (08:28):
Straight line. So

Sandi Bragar (08:31):
That was your goal.

Caroline Gaynor (08:33):
When you’re younger, you’re like, I want to be a singer. Wasn’t going to happen, a veterinarian, all sorts of things. But I went to college and didn’t know what I wanted to do. I knew I did not want to be an investment banker because I watched my brother not sleep for about two years of his life. Didn’t want to do that, but finance seemed interesting to me. But what does finance mean? And I did not know. I meet kids nowadays and they’re like, I learned how to invest in middle school. And I’m like, I did not know what investing was. And now I have a passion for teaching people about how to invest, but when I did not learn it for many, many years.

Sandi Bragar (09:15):
Caroline, I’m curious with this backstory and learning how you were thinking about things as you were moving toward adulthood. You get into adulthood at age 24, 2008, financial crisis.

Caroline Gaynor (09:29):
So two years of pretending to be an adult and then

Sandi Bragar (09:32):
Boom.

Caroline Gaynor (09:32):
Yep.

Sandi Bragar (09:33):
Yeah. So tell us about the first two years out of college and what was going through your mind as kind of that precursor for that large pivotal moment toward helping guide other athletes?

Caroline Gaynor (09:45):
Well, if I’m being totally honest, I don’t think college prepared me, or maybe I wasn’t paying attention, but I don’t feel like it prepared me for working. And so I think I came into the workforce, but probably some very undeserved, I don’t want to say arrogance, but I did not understand what an entry level job entails and what every entry level job entails is do anything you’re asked to do cringe. I cringe when I think of myself as a 22-year-old, so not that way now, but at the time I remember, I think I felt dissatisfied pretty early on. Like, oh, I should make more money or I should have more responsibility. I really wish I could go shake 22-year-old me. And just to understand that everyone starts here, that’s what you do. That is just the baseline. But I was learning what we did and I was working for a large asset manager on the pension side. I remember taking notes in meetings and not really understanding enough, and I probably wasn’t curious enough. So again, that’s something that I’m so glad that I failed so massively in my twenties because now I feel like I’m a completely different person as a professional and even in my personal life. But man, I didn’t know how to work when I started my career. I hope this helps somebody listening. I really do.

Sandi Bragar (11:11):
Not many people do. That’s true.

Caroline Gaynor (11:13):
Some people can fake it better. Good

Cammie Doder (11:14):
Point. Well, you are sort of told as you’re going through college, you’re set, you studied marketing. And this really resonates with me because I’m thinking I didn’t want to do a two year training program my friend was doing, I want to get in and lead the program and realizing when I got there, no, you’re kind of an assistant to the person who created the business, and that is key learning. I also want to underscore this idea of being more curious and less fearful of asking dumb questions. It’s the gift I would give myself if I could do it all over again immediately. So Caroline, I’ve done a couple triathlons, they’re brutal. I’ve done

Sandi Bragar (11:56):
Zero just to be

Cammie Doder (11:57):
Very

Sandi Bragar (11:58):
Clear. And I do not expect that to change. So I’m in awe.

Cammie Doder (12:02):
I am in awe too. Iron and the Ironman is something that I used to watch and think, wow, I never dreamed of doing it. It’s just nuts. And I can’t imagine the idea that you’re not even doing it yourself. You’re doing it for someone with someone. Will you share that journey with us and just the experience of helping someone in an Ironman accomplish their dreams and through that, your dreams.

Sandi Bragar (12:27):
And I’m really curious in the money aspects of it too.

Caroline Gaynor (12:31):
I think I read recently that the average income of Ironman triathletes is like $250,000 because it’s a very expensive sport.

Cammie Doder (12:38):
Expensive.

Caroline Gaynor (12:39):
And again, that’s another place where my parents were very supportive of my athletic endeavors. So I did my first regular triathlon when I was going into my senior year of high school. So Olympic distance

Cammie Doder (12:49):
Wrote

Caroline Gaynor (12:49):
My college entrance essay on it, but I was a rower in college, so I just did ’em in the summers. And then when I stopped rowing in college, I decided to leave. I felt like the coach wasn’t operating with the athlete’s best interests at heart. And so I left and I was like, I can’t let anyone think I’m quitting to just go party. So I signed up for an Ironman and did a bunch of fundraising.

Cammie Doder (13:11):
Oh my gosh.

Caroline Gaynor (13:11):
So I did my first one in 2005 and raised a bunch of money for an organization in New York, and I was very happy to do that one. And I was like, all right, I’m good. That was a lot of work. A lot of time. I trained all summer, I didn’t see friends, it was a lot. And then I fell into Iron Man guiding a regular Olympic distance triathlon. If you’re in good shape and you know how to do it, it’s not as much work, but it was 2010 that there was a woman training to become the first female blind athlete to do an Iron Man with a female guide. But she wasn’t training with me. I didn’t know her. She lived in Seattle, but her guide broke her wrist about a month before the race. And so then I get a message, I think this was early Facebook days too, so it wasn’t like everybody could just connect with one another, but somebody saw a post she made, they knew I had guided and they connected us, and I had a month to prepare for this.

Cammie Doder (14:04):
Oh my goodness. To train and get ready for an Ironman.

Caroline Gaynor (14:08):
To be clear, you cannot train in a month. But I was in good enough shape and I was just hoping that I could hang on.

Sandi Bragar (14:14):
And Caroline, the training is all happening after work hours on the in-between times.

Cammie Doder (14:20):
Absolutely.

Caroline Gaynor (14:20):
Yeah. So before, after work, weekends,

Sandi Bragar (14:23):
Full-time career that you’re building, you’re running, biking, swimming all the time.

Caroline Gaynor (14:29):
Yes.

Sandi Bragar (14:30):
As a guide, how much work are you doing with the person you’re guiding in advance?

Caroline Gaynor (14:35):
So nowadays, now that I’m doing marathons and I run with Achilles International, which is an amazing organization that’s been around for over 40 years, I try to do it most of the long runs with the athlete I’m racing with. In this instance, she lived in the Pacific Northwest, so we met right before the race. But ideally, if anyone out there wants to guide, it’s great to have a local athlete. It’s way better if you can train together.

Cammie Doder (15:02):
I bet.

Caroline Gaynor (15:02):
Yeah.

Cammie Doder (15:03):
So let’s bring back this money question. It’s such an expensive sport. How did you think about that? You talked about feeling insecurity as a young person. Maybe this ties together at this point. Were you still worried about money or how did you reconcile growing up a certain way and getting to a place where you are maybe today?

Caroline Gaynor (15:25):
Probably wasn’t worried enough. In my twenties.

Cammie Doder (15:28):
Confidence, same confidence came in.

Caroline Gaynor (15:30):
Well, that’s why I’m so passionate about what financial advisors do because I think that retirement is this, it’s like a nebulous concept. And also when you’re in your twenties, you’re like, retirement, what? And so I hope people reframe it. It’s more about just having a portion of what you’re earning and just putting it away because for whatever that is, and you don’t want to think about, oh, it’s not something I touch until I’m 65. It’s more you might want to buy a house or what if you lose your job? Things I never thought about, but when it came to triathlons, it’s funny. And I still to this day allocate a good portion of money to fitness. I see it as an investment in myself, if you will. But the other thing is when you’re guiding, you’re technically not a participant in the race, not an official one.

(16:19):
You don’t get a finished time. Now in the major marathons, you technically can get one of the stars if you’ve heard of people who want to get all six stars from the major marathons, but technically you’re not in the race, so you don’t pay an entry fee. And people are surprised. So when we’re looking for guides and stuff, we always want to make sure that people are doing it for the right reason and not just to be like, oh, I did this race. But yeah. So you’re technically, I won’t say a piece of equipment that feels a little bit too strong, but you are there as an accommodation because a visually impaired or blind person cannot complete the race without a guide. So in that way, it’s less expensive, but you still have to do travel, you have to have your own equipment, things like that. But it’s very expensive. Bikes, access to a pool running, running is a way more cost effective sport.

Sandi Bragar (17:08):
What has caused you to continue guiding so many people knowing that there is this cost cost to you? You could easily do these races on your own if you wanted. Have them count.

Caroline Gaynor (17:22):
Yeah, I mean, I think what you just said that I can easily do them on my own, but if you’re blind or visually impaired, you have to have someone do it with you. And so that was the realization I came to. It was like, I’m not trying to be a pro triathlete for, there was a time I wanted to be fast for me, but then I realized there were not that many people doing it. There are still people that I know that want to do all these races and have trouble finding guides. You have to be an organizer to A, get the training in B, do the races. So I think for me, it’s just knowing that it is much harder for somebody who’s blind or visually impaired to do it. And yeah, I can, I could go fundraise and do any of the major marathons. I’m not going to say I could qualify for them, who knows? But that’s a big thing. But then really it’s the relationships that have kept me doing it. It has been the constant in my life. Even when work wasn’t great or things at home weren’t great, or my mom was declining in her Parkinson’s, Lewy body dementia journey guiding has been my rock in so many ways. So people are always like, oh, it’s selfless. I’m like, no, no, no. I have gotten far more out of guiding than I’ve given to it without question.

Cammie Doder (18:39):
Isn’t that the ultimate message of we receive more through giving and it’s really cool. I got to go back to this. You’re in college, you come out of college and you’re really confident around money. Tell me your money relationship journey.

Caroline Gaynor (18:56):
Oh, well, it came about through ending up with nothing. It was changing jobs way too many times in my twenties and just realizing I needed to have a purpose behind what I did, but I hadn’t found it. And so I mean, I left New York, moved to Texas and was working at a bike shop selling bikes. And weirdly, people were like, oh, that’s so cool. And I’m like, yeah, but I’m trying to pay my rent. So I was pretty close to just fully changing careers and figuring that out. But then when I encountered my prior employer, I learned about what financial advisors do, and I learned about investing in compound interest. And I was like, okay, so I can help advisors really help people. So 12 years ago is when I found my path. And I have been diehard really about evangelizing what advisors do. I would say since then, and going back to my mom that I briefly mentioned, it was a relationship with an advisor that helped us navigate all the transitions around my mom really going from, we thought it was Parkinson’s to then it was dementia and needing power of attorney and moves from her house to living with us to living in assisted living.

(20:09):
I mean, we relied on an advisor to help us with that. So I am probably the biggest advocate for advisors despite not being one.

Sandi Bragar (20:17):
It made me wonder, Caroline, did you ever consider becoming a financial advisor?

Caroline Gaynor (20:21):
I didn’t know that career path existed. I think probably when I was graduating, it was more of the broker model. Maybe I could have gone into a training class, but that would’ve been more of the smile and dial. I did not know what a CFP was, so I didn’t consider it. But looking back, I think I would’ve enjoyed it. But yeah, I’m so glad that these opportunities, they’re more available. You can find them now. I think the industry is talking more about what do advisors do. So I’m really grateful. I think it’s

Sandi Bragar (20:52):
Going to help. Profession has certainly matured over the last 30 years. That is for sure. Yeah. Sorry, I was going back 30 for my own time in it, but yes, you’re absolutely right. And I love this theme of helping people that is in your life front and center, and thank you for sharing about how you are helping your mother. That’s something that a lot of people are facing today, and there are a lot of complex financial and emotional and relationship complexities related to that to navigate. And so I’m sure she was really appreciative of what you and your family were able to do to help her with all of that. I’m curious, how do these relationships of helping your mom, helping guide these athletes, knowing that your purpose is around connecting people, making their lives better, helping support financial advisors, how are you carrying that into this future chapter of your life and what role does money play in that vision for you?

Caroline Gaynor (21:59):
I mean, guiding will always play a role in my life. And now I’m fortunate where I work for what I consider to be the best asset manager out there. And so it’s a job that I want to hang on to as long as I can. But I think right now for me it’s the educating part. I feel secure in so many areas of my life. I want to educate people about the benefit of compound interest, about investing in low cost ETFs, about hiring a financial advisor. I want to teach my kids about that and I want to continue to get more people involved in guiding. So I would say education is the number one thing for me right now is just how do I tell more people about all of these amazing things? Well, also, I’m not an influencer. So

Cammie Doder (22:42):
You’re an evangelist. I love it.

Sandi Bragar (22:44):
It sounds like you are in your own way.

Caroline Gaynor (22:46):
I have no interest in, I’m not trying to develop an online following, I’ll say that, but I want to talk about these things. It means so much to me because I think that being financially secure, it promotes good mental health. I think giving back does the same thing. And again, so many people are in just want to acknowledge, are unable to earn a living wage. So again, I realize that’s totally fortunate. I don’t consider being financially secure to be, it doesn’t mean you’re morally superior if you can provide for your family, but I think that there are little things that everyone can do. And so I’m always trying to talk openly about money with people because very few people do. And then finally, with just thinking about women, I love being on a podcast with three women on here, but I try to talk to people about compensation and help women advocate for what they deserve to earn and things like that. Because for so long we weren’t really allowed to talk about these things. Women weren’t really supposed to talk about money and certainly not about what their professions can pay. And so as much as I hope my daughter doesn’t ask everyone on our street what they make, I love that she’s curious about it.

Cammie Doder (23:53):
Alright. You led me to my next question. As a mom, it sounds like you are having conversations. You’re someone who really demonstrates having money conversations. Tell us how you’re bringing this financial literacy and maybe some of the confidence that your daughter is already demonstrating. How do you bring that home to your family and with your kids?

Caroline Gaynor (24:17):
I mean, she’s a little bit too young now, but it goes back to just the magic of compound interest. I want to show her the growth of a dollar chart as early as she can possibly comprehend it. We’re probably, we’re almost there because that’s the key. I always say there’s not one right way to invest. I mean, the degree to which you emphasize certain areas of your portfolio, yes, I believe in investing in cheap stocks with good profits, but it’s whatever you can tolerate and then just don’t touch it as long as you can. And it is incredible what will happen. And thankfully you do see more of that content now. I mean, social media didn’t exist when I was younger, but I just want her to understand, put this money away, don’t touch it and you’re going to be fine. And you don’t have to find the job that pays you the absolute most as long as you live within your means.

Cammie Doder (25:11):
Good messaging, important messaging.

Sandi Bragar (25:14):
And Caroline, tell us about the conversations you’re having with your female friends about money.

Caroline Gaynor (25:20):
Well, I feel like every woman I know that’s in their forties is questioning everything in their life right now. And it really depends what position the woman is in. So when I talk to women in their thirties, it’s if they haven’t married yet, it’s what kind of partner do you want? Are you going to marry somebody that is comfortable with you? Being a primary earner, that’s a big thing, right? I think a lot of women who are successful think they have to marry somebody who is equally financially successful, but that can be a really hard balance. So there’s that same

Sandi Bragar (25:50):
With the opposite. True, right? A successful woman who marries someone who has had even more success or has more financial resources through family wealth, that can also be,

Caroline Gaynor (26:03):
Yeah,

Sandi Bragar (26:04):
I think knowing your wealth identity is very important. Oh,

Caroline Gaynor (26:07):
I hadn’t even thought of that.

Sandi Bragar (26:09):
I

Cammie Doder (26:09):
Know I love that terminology too,

Sandi Bragar (26:11):
How it interacts with your partner.

Caroline Gaynor (26:14):
And then, I mean, for me, my career has been the dominant one and we made the choice, and I was lucky that he was willing to make the choice to let my career be the dominant one. But then that’s another relationship dynamic to navigate. So what I love is when there’s sort of one person can earn more and then they take a step back and then the other person can come in. But that doesn’t always work, right? Because if you do take a step back, you may not be able to catch up or earn, but if you save well enough, it just gives you so much flexibility. So right now, most of the people in my age group, they’re still in there. We need to earn as much as possible. But we’re starting to talk now about what are you going to do when you’re 50? What are you going to do when you’re 60? You still have a ton of life left, knock on wood. How do you want to spend your time? And I think money, it’s really about just giving you flexibility.

Sandi Bragar (27:03):
That’s right. If you’ve created and have been able to save and invest your wealth, that does provide you more opportunities to do different things with your time. The dollar time correlation is very high. Not everybody thinks about it. So I’m really glad that you’re having those conversations with your daughter because those are really important lessons for us to learn throughout our life. I was doing some looking into Trump accounts. Those are new accounts that will be offered later this year. Families, friends, anybody can contribute to them. There’s some rules about who can actually open the account, but you can contribute $5,000 per year. And up until this point, people could also invest money on, put money away for their children to invest in different ways. My point in bringing this up is that there’s just more and more opportunities now, I think for families and friends to provide financial resources to young people to be able to learn those lessons. When you have that money in your account and someone’s helping you decide how to invest it, and you see the dollars growing over time, that can be sometimes the most powerful. Not everyone can afford to set money aside. I think importantly, the dollar amount probably doesn’t even matter that much. Even like a hundred dollars or $200, it’ll grow. For those who can spare, it goes a long way.

Cammie Doder (28:28):
Tell us about these incredible conversations you had with your husband. It would really help listeners who are having conversations with their significant other. And how did you all approach it? Was it just something you comfortably started doing? Do you have a system? Do you talk every week? How do you have many conversations?

Caroline Gaynor (28:48):
I wish, and I wouldn’t call us a model. I mean, I think we sort of fell into it, but the first thing was he was willing to move to Charlotte where I live. So he left his job to move here with me for my job. At the time, we were on equal footing, but we knew that the path that I was on, but either one of us, if whoever was going to be the primary earner was going to have to travel, but his travel, I think would’ve been a bit more rigid from what I understand. And so it was, okay, so he’s not going to try to go into a consulting type role to be on the road all the time, but my travel did end up being more than we anticipated. And so then it became, alright, how do we navigate this? And then it became, you really do need to make sure that if you’re putting all of this time and effort in, you need to be compensated fairly. And now we’re trying to put the support systems in place so it’s not such a burden on him because it’s hard to take care of two kids by yourself. So now, thankfully, we’re thinking about what can we outsource Again, this is my life stage, my

Cammie Doder (29:53):
Career so important.

Caroline Gaynor (29:54):
Yeah. What do we not need to do? Is now the question.

Cammie Doder (29:59):
Absolutely.

Caroline Gaynor (30:00):
And I mean, I talk to people about that a lot because there are folks that they don’t even consider, well, maybe I should just not do that anymore, and if we can get somebody else to do it.

Sandi Bragar (30:11):
No, that’s right. And that can be a hard decision too sometimes, right? Because in our society where we grow up with expectations placed on us, I think it’s really important to question those expectations and navigate them. So kudos to you and your husband for doing that.

Caroline Gaynor (30:27):
Well, I learned from other people, a friend of mine, I don’t like cooking, so we hire somebody, A friend said this, so we have somebody who delivers meals to us, and I had never even thought about it, and we still haven’t figured meals out. That’s probably the hardest thing, but it’s

Cammie Doder (30:41):
Hard in our house too

Caroline Gaynor (30:42):
Every night. But you see those jokes online about every day you decide what you’re going to eat for dinner until you die. I mean, yeah, it’s not fun, especially when your kids don’t eat anything. And then it’s like, what do you enjoy doing right now? My husband enjoys mowing the lawn, and so we’re not outsourcing that. But to me that would be a number one thing that would be easy to take off somebody’s plate. But it’s what do you get joy from? And then what do you Absolutely not. I have no interest in folding laundry ever. So that’s something that we get help with.

Sandi Bragar (31:13):
Caroline, how often are you and your husband talking about these things? Do you have a sort of formal process or

Caroline Gaynor (31:19):
No, not as often as we should. The people who do it right, I would say they’re doing it. I see friends that really have it together. They’re doing it at the very least monthly. We are not the model for that.

Sandi Bragar (31:31):
I would beg to defer and say that there’s no model.

Caroline Gaynor (31:35):
Yeah.

Sandi Bragar (31:35):
I think it’s hard to put an expectation on doing it right. It sounds like you guys are doing what works for you, which is great. But I was just sort of curious about whether it was sort of like a just in time in the moment something’s coming up or whether there was a more formal aspect to it, because there are so many different ways that people have these conversations. I think the most important thing is that you guys are having them,

Caroline Gaynor (31:57):
Definitely. And I think a lot of them we have with our advisor, because then it’ss an unbiased third party who’s not part of our family. And if it’s maybe I want to spend more on X, Y, Z, and they don’t want to, or the advisor’s like, yes, you can, but maybe James is uncomfortable with that. And then we have that conversation and it’s somebody who’s just looking at the numbers and saying, yeah, this makes sense, or this, I mean, when we first had my daughter, it was how are we going to afford childcare, which is something everybody struggles with. And it has evolved, right? As we’ve gotten older and now we have a second child. But having somebody who is not in our marriage to talk about these things with has been imperative

Cammie Doder (32:43):
And that you trust them and you have history with them. It’s so critical and helpful.

Sandi Bragar (32:49):
They know it’s important to you and their objective, the

Cammie Doder (32:52):
Objectivity, right?

Sandi Bragar (32:53):
Love that. Caroline, what’s your next money conversation going to be and who will it be with?

Caroline Gaynor (32:58):
Probably my daughter. I’ve motivated myself through this conversation to figure out the best way to talk about investing, because we’ve talked a little bit about stocks and she asks about what I do. I’m not going to get into what an ETF is, but I want to show her the benefit of investing and what that could mean for her life, because I wish I’d learned that so much earlier than I did that I think it should be taught in schools. It is not generally. So I want to teach her as much as I can about that. All right. I’m going to put that on the calendar. I think

Cammie Doder (33:39):
You know what, Caroline, these are, you’ve really demonstrated what you wanted in yourself as a younger person, this curiosity, and I think even just in this conversation that there’s no right path, and that’s so important. We’re all in our own personal journeys, but can we keep learning? Absolutely. So thank you for joining. Guiding. Guiding.

Sandi Bragar (34:02):
I like that you’re the master guide,

Cammie Doder (34:03):
Caroline. Absolutely. And we can all guide and help people. Caroline, where’s the best place for our listeners to find you?

Caroline Gaynor (34:11):
I would say probably at LinkedIn. I’m pretty public. You can search my name. I’m right there. Send me a message. And I’m always happy to talk about guiding about investing, anything like that. And I’m pretty public. I’m also Caroline Bikes, but spelled like Caroline on Instagram and I’m public there as well. So happy to chat with anybody who gets anything out of this conversation. And also, I’m open to ideas, so if anyone has suggestions for books or resources for teaching kids how to invest, I’m all ears.

Cammie Doder (34:38):
Oh, wonderful. Well, Caroline, thank you for joining us on Money Tales and Sharing so much of yourself.

Caroline Gaynor (34:44):
Thanks for having me.

Cammie Doder (34:52):
Sandi. After leaving this conversation with Caroline, I can’t help but go back to that recommendation or wish she had the confidence to make more mistakes or ask more questions when she was younger. And I really do look back and wish I had done the same. I’ve written about it for our blog Fathom,

Sandi Bragar (35:15):
Asking more questions, me more curious as a young professional,

Cammie Doder (35:19):
But also just that I came out of business school and I thought I needed to know everything. And so I didn’t ask questions about equity that I held, that I made mistakes that I really wish I had had the confidence to say, I don’t know. And that would be truly, I said it, the gift I give myself, and now I want to give it to younger generations and even to myself now. Be curious, be confident to ask them questions. There is no such thing.

Sandi Bragar (35:45):
That’s right. Curiosity is so important, and I appreciated what Caroline brought to the conversation in terms of continuing to have money, conversations throughout your life with different people, whether it’s within your profession, within your family, with your spouse or partner with your children. Just talking more about money helps, and she brought up some really hard money conversations, helping her mother get through the last years of her life, helping figure out with her husband how they were going to navigate their family and making really hard decisions. When two people come together with careers, choosing which way to go, how to support both careers or lean into one over another, that’s not easy stuff.

Cammie Doder (36:36):
You’re not given the map.

Sandi Bragar (36:37):
No.

Cammie Doder (36:37):
There’s the path to follows

Sandi Bragar (36:39):
The way forward on that and understanding that there are no rules, there are

Cammie Doder (36:45):
Best

Sandi Bragar (36:46):
Practices. There’s things that you can do. I would say having the money conversation is the best practice with an emphasis on practice. These things just take time to get better and better at. But there aren’t rules for when to be having these conversations or how often to have them. Just being in the conversation is the key.

Cammie Doder (37:04):
I’m glad you said that, Sandi, because even Caroline said, oh, we’re not great at this. And I was listening thinking, you are great at this. She was trying not to seem like she has the recipe, and I think that was a fair comment. We all work this through and we figure out our own recipe, and then things change, and you come up with your new recipe.

Sandi Bragar (37:25):
That’s right. Because the danger is not having the conversation, getting too in your head, being too scared or uncomfortable or whatever the right adjective is for you. When we don’t have the conversations, we start making assumptions, and the assumptions aren’t always correct. Oftentimes actually they’re not correct and they can snowball over time. So being in the conversation is what matters. And congratulations to Caroline for being in so many and for encouraging others to be in those conversations. And I can’t say this enough, helping guide people. She’s just a guide in so many aspects of her life, and I think that’s something we can all take away from the conversation. Where are areas where we can help guide others?

Cammie Doder (38:15):
Oh, I like that, Sandi, and what an inspiration she is.

Sandi Bragar (38:19):
Absolutely. If you enjoyed this conversation, please share it with a friend. Otherwise, we’ll look forward to having you be a part of our next Money Tales conversation.

Cammie Doder (38:33):
Thanks for listening to the Money Money Tales podcast. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, share it with someone you think would benefit from listening and leave us a review on your favorite podcasting platform. Your ratings and reviews help more people find our podcast. If you’re inspired to gain clarity and peace of mind about financial matters, don’t hesitate to reach out to our team at Aspiriant. Go to Aspiriant.com/start a dialogue, or you can email Sandi and me at podcasts@aspiriant.com. See you next time.